This is a rebroadcast of Episode 149. Note that since the publication of Episode 149, Harvey Mackay has completely overhauled his website. Links have been updated in the synopsis, but not all offers mentioned are current.
Today Dr. Misner is joined by Harvey Mackay, author of Swim with the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive, who has a new book for job seekers, Use Your Head to Get Your Foot in the Door.
He has a 66-question customer profile all his sales reps have to fill out. The questions in the Mackay 66™ are aimed at making a human connection. This is similar to the GAINS Exchange at BNI.
One of the topics addressed in Use Your Head to Get Your Foot in the Door is how to handle rejection. Here are some things to say to a client who chooses to leave:
- Thank you for giving your business to us all these years.
- What can we do to make an easy transition for you?
- If things don’t work out, we’re ready, willing and able to consider stepping right back in.
- We sure would love to keep in touch with you over time.
The book comes with a money-back guarantee: if you don’t have a job within 6 months of applying the techniques in it, Harvey will give you your money back. Go to Mackaybook.com to buy the book and get some great free gifts.
Brought to you by Networking Now.
Complete Transcription of BNI Podcast Episode 149 –
Hello everyone, and welcome back to The Official BNI Podcast brought to you by NetworkingNow.com, which is the leading site on the Net for networking downloadables.
I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the founder and the chairman of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner.
Hello, Ivan. How are you doing?
I am doing great, Priscilla. And I have on the line with me on the line Harvey Mackay. Harvey is the author of five New York Times Bestsellers, including his Number 1 book, Swim with the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive. And the New York Times also named that book and Beware the Naked Man Who Offers You His Shirt as two of the fifteen most inspirational books of all time. Harvey has written a new book. It’s a runaway bestseller. I have a copy of it with me right here. It’s called Use Your Head to Get Your Foot in the Door, and Harvey is the only contributing author that has contributed to all three of my Masters books, Masters of Networking book, the Masters of Sales book, and the Masters of Success book. All three of them, Harvey has contributed to it.
Harvey, I want to thank you, first of all, for being willing to contribute to all three of those books, and I want go congratulate you on your latest book. It’s a bestseller, as well it should be. It’s a great book.
Ivan, thank you very much. I’ve been looking forward to coming out with you. I appreciate it very much. I’m in the middle of a 30 city book tour, 5 cities down, 24 to go. So happy to be with you.
Well, you know what? Thank you. I don’t bring very many people on the podcast, so I’m very selective about who I bring on, but you’ve got great material, and I think it’s material that’s going to really help our BNI members. So let me jump in and ask you a couple of questions.
First of all, share with the BNI members about the Mackay 66 and how it relates to sales and job seeking.
Well, surely when I wrote Swim With the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive, I put in there, my sales force almost pushed me over the cliff. They said, “Don’t do that!” I said, “Don’t worry.” I said, “We’ve been doing this for 20 years.”
I came up at age 21, and I was peddling selling envelopes, a 66 question customer profile we require all of our sales people to fill out. We have $100 million company, Ivan, about 600 people, 35 sales people, and we’ve been at it for, you know, four-and-a-half decades. But you wouldn’t believe how much we know about our customers. The IRS wouldn’t believe how much we know about our customers. And I’m not talking about their taste in envelopes either. We want to know, based on routine conversation and observation, what a customer is like as a human being, what he or she feels strongly about, what he’s most proud of having achieved. In other words, we want to humanize, we want to humanize our sales strategy, and so therefore, we’ve been doing that. That’s how I built my business. That’s how I’ve built about five others that I’ve been involved with, and that’s what I’ve got a course in the book scattered throughout the book here, because there is really truly not much of a difference between selling widgets, envelopes, nuts and bolts, doesn’t matter what your product is, or getting a job.
You see, when you get a job, and of course, the subtitle is Job Search Secrets No One Else Will Tell You, when you get a job, you have to humanize your selling experience, you have to humanize your job search. And by that, what do I mean? Well, people buy from other people because of likeability, because of people skills, because of chemistry. Yes, you have to perform; yes, you have to be confident; yes, you have to be able to do the job you’re interviewing for; okay, or the product that you’re selling. But once you’ve done that and now you build the relationship long term, and I know we’re talking to a lot of people, sales people, entrepreneurs out there, professional people. The professional people, they have to bring the business through the front door. How do they do that? Well, you have to humanize your selling strategy. So that’s what the Mackay 66 is.
There’s a huge mistake that people make when they go out looking for a job, incidentally, and there’s a lot of questions in there. I don’t think you can be successful at all in the three areas, and the people that are listening right now, without one word, and certainly the entrepreneurs for sure. The hiring is so very important, and if you have to hire for success, you have to know what you’re doing, and there’s 20 fabulous questions in the back of the book. I’ve been hiring for 45 years; I’ve had 1,000 people through the front door; I’ve mentored maybe 500 of them to get jobs, 1,000 interviews. And so as I travel around the United States, people want to know how did I build my business. One word: hiring.
And that’s important. Many of my BNI members have employees who work for them, so that’s really important.
But I like you content about making that connection and building the relationship. For the BNI members here, let’s see if we can make a connection to what Harvey is describing here. We use the GAINS Exchange, and the GAINS Exchange, Harvey, is something that we ask our members to fill out. It’s an acronym; it stands for Goals, Accomplishments, Interests, Networks, and Skills. And we ask our members to fill that out and give to each other for the very thing that you’re describing, because the more you learn about somebody else, the more connected your feel to them, the better the relationship you have.
I had a BNI member once say, just recently, that “In these tough times, a client may leave you, but friend probably won’t.” If you have that relationship with somebody, they’re less likely to leave your business.
I love it, and I have a little piggy back on that, too, where I’ve said in this book, “You can take all my factories from me, I’ve got about four or five, you can take all my people, employees from me, you can take all my machinery and equipment, but leave me my name, leave me my reputation, and I’ll be back where I was today in two or three years.” And so I think with all the goals that you just happened to mention and the networking and the people, you have to have that trust, and that’s where the friendship comes in. So I agree with you 100 percent.
I’ve never told this story, but very, very briefly, I would not be here probably if it weren’t for Larry King. I was lucky enough to be on his show a few nights ago, which, of course, helped me immensely, but I had a chance to meet him, and, boom, I have five minutes in a car. He invited me into his stretch limousine. We were both standing on the corner. And he said, “Where are you going, kid?” He called me “Kid.”
And I said, “I’m headed for the Parklane Hotel.”
“Jump in. I’ll take you.”
I’ve got 300 seconds to get on Larry King. Is that high soprano, Ivan?!
That’s really pressure, but to make a long story short, my father taught me was, if I ever headed the Associated Press, every person I meet as long as I live, when the hand goes out and I introduce myself, right to my brain bank, “What can I do for Ivan Misner?” That’s what I’m thinking about and “Expect nothing in return.”
If you can do that all your life, you’ll never have to worry.
Well, you’re absolutely speaking to the choir here with BNI, Harvey. We have a philosophy in the organization called Givers Gain. If you want to get business from people, you have to be willing to help them, support them, and it will come back around to you. So we’re definitely singing the same tune.
That’s why you’re so successful. And you know what? Tell the listeners out there, you just can’t hear it enough. It’s so easy, you know, to forget. It has to become a part of you. That’s all. You have to be just almost born with it, engrained in it. That’s what my father taught me, and that’s the reason why I’ve had a lot of luck over a long period of time.
Well, let’s switch gears just a little bit. Tell me about rejection. That was something that you talked about in the book and elsewhere, about rejection. And I particularly like the material about getting canned, whether you’re talking about in a business, a job or as a client, if a client cans you. I love the content you have in there, so give us a comment on that.
That happens all of the time. People have to understand, and again, you should know and I should tell your listeners the following. This is not just a jobs book; this is a book for every CEO, entrepreneur; it’s got it all in there, marketing, Mackay 66, how to sell, same thing on how to sell yourself.
But back to your question about rejection, it’s something I call it the A to Z Career Resource Book, is what I kind of think of that road here in the last couple years, but it’s only been out there a week in the marketplace.
But back to rejection. Every listener has to know that failure is not permanent; it’s only temporary. Your attitude determines your altitude. My last book was We Got Fired and It’s the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Us, and I had ten famous Americans on there. One of them was my closest friend, he’s my brother, we’re joined at the hip. His name is Lou Holtz, and he’s the Notre Dame coach for 11 years, the Hall of Famer, now with ESPN, but he got fired at Arkansas. Frank Broyles, the athletic director, fired him. He was a successful coach; comes home to his wife, Bev; said he’s going to sue the school, sue Broyles; he’s just livid. And his wife, fabulous, smart, bright, Bev, talks him out of it. He goes back. And what does he do? He makes friends with Frank Broyles. A few years later, he’s the head coach at Notre Dame. He wouldn’t have gotten the job if he hadn’t learned something from that firing experience. And that’s what rejection is.
When you get rejected, when you lose an order, when you lose an account, you have to, number one, not take it personally. That’s just key. Number two, you must learn from that experience. And number three, that if you’re going to burn your bridges, you better be a doggone good swimmer. So you can’t go out like Lou Holtz almost did. Those are the things that conquer the rejection.
And then, of course, what really helps is to have a kitchen cabinet. What’s a kitchen cabinet? Two or three or four trusted friends who care about you. And so when things aren’t going well and you want to bounce back – you know, people remember two things in life, who kicked you when you were down and who helped you on the way up. So that kitchen cabinet can be very important, too, to overcome rejection.
I don’t go around, incidentally, Ivan, with negative people. All positive people have no negative friends whatsoever.
Yeah, you’ve got to surround yourself with positive people, and, I think, in many ways you become, you know, the five or six people you hang around the most with. The people that you’re around are, in many ways, what you become.
Without question. And this is a University of Michigan study. This is fascinating. It’s conversely what we’re talking about that just proves the point in reverse, very, very much nails it on the head. University of Michigan study, they picked out a particular student, he was a male, he had two friends, and they drove to school every day. And so one day, the two friends, and this was all planned, he gets in the car and they said, “You sleep well last night?”
He said, “Yeah, of course.”
They said, “Oh, we thought you had some bags under your eyes.”
The second hour, he goes to class, and a girl comes up to him, a student, and says, “You lose some weight?”
“No, no. I feel fine.”
Third hour, another person with a negative comment comes up and says, “You worried about something?” By the fifth hour that kid, student, has checked himself into the hospital, total wreck. And that’s what negativism can do to you, and that’s why you must have positive friends.
I agree completely. And don’t complain to people, because half the people you tell don’t care and the other half are glad you’re worse off than they are.
There’s four or five statements that you make in the book in Chapter Nine, and we’re almost out of time, and I just want to mention them. If you lose a client, and I think this is really relevant in BNI, here’s four or five questions you list that I just love.
One is, the first thing you say is, “Thank you for giving your business to us all these years.” You’ve got to say it with sincerity, you say.
The next thing you say is, “What can we do to make an easy transition for you?” Wow! What a great question that is. Nobody ever asks that.
The next couple things are: “If things don’t work out, we’re ready, willing, and able to consider stepping right back in, and we sure would love to keep in touch with you over time.”
What great questions to ask, and I appreciate you sharing them in the book, and I think that’s positive stuff for our BNI members. Anything you’d add to those questions?
It’s kind of you and I, Ivan, we’re dating the same woman for two years, we’re both madly in love with her, and she decides to marry you. And I see you on the street three, five days later, whatever, after the decision, my hand goes out, big smile, “Okay, Ivan, congratulations; hope you’re happy.” You know, I’m burning inside, but you have to do the right thing. And the funny part about it is, not only is it the right thing, but it’s amazing when you lose – when you lose a client, it’s amazing how much business you’re going to get over a period of a lifetime back because of the way you made the exits.
And you didn’t burn bridges. Just like you said there, by not burning those bridges, you still leave the door open to do business with them down the road. That’s so important.
Um-hmm. It’s taking a lemon and doing lemonade. It happens every single day, but I’ll tell you, a lot of short-sighted people out there, and they certainly don’t think that way.
Right. Well, listen, we’re out of time. There’s a couple of things that I want to mention. You’ve got something that I just almost never see on a book, and that’s a money back guarantee on the book. Is that right?
Well, on the back of the book, it says, I think I can almost quote it verbatim, “Do not read this book; study it, underline it, highlight it, use Post-It notes. And if you don’t have a job after six months,” and in this case, anybody that’s listening, they’ll like the book, “I, personally, Harvey Mackay, will give you your money back.”
Now, I’m on this 30 city tour, 5 cities down, 25 to go, and 25 TV interviews, 35 radio, almost everybody asks me that question. “How can you make a statement like that?”
And I say, “Look, I’ve been doing this 45 years. I’ve had 500 people in Minneapolis, where one of my major plants is, the home office, through the front door, and they’ve gotten everything they’ve wanted. And so, therefore, when I wrote Swim With the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive, my publisher gave me a three week fight. I said, “Please,” I begged with them, I said, “put on the back page,” I was the first author in the United States to do this, “put on the back page, ‘Money back guarantee if you don’t like this book.’” Five million, Ivan, five million copies have been sold as Swim With the Sharks; eighteen, eighteen people have asked for their money back and seven of them were my best friends.
Well, listen, that is amazing, Harvey. I am so impressed. You’ve got a Web site where people can go, pick up the book, and there’s a lot of other free gifts as well, I believe. Mackaybook.com; that’s Mackay, spelled M-A-C-K-A-Y, book.com. What are a couple of the gifts? We’re over time, but tell us exactly –
Well, they’re called my mini gold mine, and that is it’s a Harvey Mackay Rolodex Network Builder. That’s what I grew up with, the Rolodex, of course, now the computer. The $12.95 book that sells to other corporations all over the world, they can download that in seconds. If they purchase the book, it’s got 20 pages of my MBA at the Harvard MBA program, which is my whole life. It’s pages 63-84 in that book, about 120 pages. So if they just do that, the rest of their lives, they will be enormously successful. They have the 66 question customer profile on there. We’ve got 16 ways to prepare again for an interview. We’ve got all different kinds of strategies, negotiation strategies in there, 20 questions, toughest questions that you want to ask someone if you’re doing the hiring. All those things are all, of course, at no charge, just gratis with the book.
So I guess my last word would be, I honestly believe that this book will be around 25 years just like Swim With the Sharks, proud that it’s a Wall Street Journal, after the first week, Bestseller, and I think there’s a lot of take-home value in there for every listener.
So I appreciate you having me on.
I agree, Harvey. I don’t recommend a whole lot of books, there’s not a whole lot that I recommend to my members on the BNI podcast, but this is one of the few ones.
And although it’s about job searches, it’s also about networking, and there’s a ton of material that you, as BNI members, can get out of the book that will help you be better BNI members and better professionals.
Harvey Mackay, thank you so much. You’re the only contributing author that’s been in all three of our Masters books. I really appreciate that, that giving and willingness to do that. Great content, and I appreciate you being on our podcast.
I love being with you, and thanks again, Ivan.
Pricilla, I’ll turn it back over to you.
Okay. Thank you so much, both of you. That was very interesting.
I’d just like to remind the listeners that this podcast has been brought to you by NetworkingNow.com, which is the leading site on the Net for networking downloadables. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we hope you’ll join us next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.